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Thread: Problem with line weights, structure vs partition wall separations. Experienced users

  1. #1
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    Problem with line weights, structure vs partition wall separations. Experienced users

    I'm got a problem that I think alot of people have experienced in the past.

    I'm trying to get a consistent, even line weight with the following end result:

    1) the exterior most 'cut line' is the thickest
    2) material separations (concrete/structure vs partition/furring) has a line in between that is thin
    3) same or similar materials have NO separation lines
    4) structural elements have the appropriate hatch (concrete has a concrete hatch)

    Note that we don't always have the exact same conditions ei: sometimes there is just concrete to concrete conditions, other times there is furring on one side of a wall on a column and the other does not. Most of our work is renovations, and we have a filled grey hatch to indicate what is new (shown at top right on attached image). Other times all surfaces of the structure is furred out, and could be either just a single column, a single wall, or any number of differing conditions.

    I am looking for a simple, intelligent, BIM friendly way to achieve this. And I have managed to achieve this in a small test project, showing some of the more complicated conditions. And I am trying to replicate the same basic procedure and end results in a project that is much further along.
    Note that my overall procedure is as follows:
    1)modified the 'out of the box' revit column so that there are detail lines in the family at the edge of the column
    2)have given those lines an instance visibility parameter that allows me to turn those lines off if the should not be visible
    3)once loaded into the project, I have joined all walls and columns
    4)in locations where the column is joined with a concrete wall, the visibility of the detail lines in the column family have been turned off

    And I am hoping someone can explain some of the things that are just outright confusing to me. In particular, when I am using filters in conjunction with worksets, the dividing line some times shows up, sometimes it does not. On the attached image (the middle column on the left hand project), the proper line weights, dividing lines, hatches all work properly, but on the column to the south of that has ALL of the same settings, except that the furring walls are on the same workset as the structure. But there is no filter override to change any line appearances, but do have overrides for the hatch only. In theory the middle column should be the same as the south column, and if I either 1) change the furring walls to a different workset than the column and wall is on or 2) remove the filter that overrides the structure workset hatch, the line issue will be fixed. I am well aware that would simply use filled regions, hatches, detail lines, etc to make it 'look' right, but with constant revisions, this is a waste of my time in the long run, and I know there is a better way to get the end result. My main problem is that when I try to replicate the settings on the test project on the left to my much more developed project on the right, I get the opposite result. On the attached image, note there is a line between the concrete column and the concrete wall, but the line between the column and the partition wall disappears. Also note that this procedure works just fine when there is only a single column to hatch (note screen shot at top right of attached image).

    I know I have gone on for a bit, but I think I have been clear in describing my problem and procedure, but if anyone can help me resolve my line weight issues in my developed project in the least time consuming, and least painful way, it would be greatly appreciated.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
    Senior Member rkitect's Avatar
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    I have to be honest, I got a little bit of TLDR; eyes while I was reading this. So I'm going to break it down into manageable chunks for myself and hopefully answer all of it concisely as I can. Here's a video for the first part of your questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by kellerpb View Post
    1) the exterior most 'cut line' is the thickest
    2) material separations (concrete/structure vs partition/furring) has a line in between that is thin
    3) same or similar materials have NO separation lines
    4) structural elements have the appropriate hatch (concrete has a concrete hatch)
    http://gibsonhh.info:8081/revit/vide...ght_Basics.swf

    Also, I'm noting that if you're doing renovation work, then most likely you should be looking at phase filters to be differentiating between existing, new and demo work. I'll take a look at that in another video. Until then, let me know if you have any questions about the first video. The only thing I would note is that there is no Same or Similar materials with no separation lines. The only way to get no separation lines between materials is to make them the same material, or to have the view in coarse mode. You'll notice in my video (as I noticed in your thumbnails) that when I'm in coarse mode, everything regardless of material removes separation lines. Keep that in mind.

    HTH,
    Last edited by rkitect; February 22nd, 2013 at 12:32 AM.

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    revittotd,

    Thank you for your response. Although I must admit that the model that I am working with is more complex, and issues can't really be broken out into separate components. There are a few things that I did learn today though; there is a built in hierarchy of the "line weight" tools. And no matter what you do, any setting used in a higher level will override the applicable settings used in lower levels of the hierarchy. Starting from the very top:

    Filled regions and detail lines
    The Line weight tool
    Override by element
    Filters
    Phase Filters
    Visibility Graphics
    Object styles

    The main problem is that since we are doing a renovation, we are also using phases and phase filters. Consequently, any line weight settings set using by either object styles (which you showed me in your video) or visibility graphics will be overridden by the settings in the phase filters. And since the we really do have to use phase filters in order to accurately show what is new vs what is existing in order to accurately show the scope of work, the tools that you showed me won't really work. What might work is if there was a way to use filters in conjunction with phase settings of the objects (not actual "phase filters") to give the proper line weights, instead of the phase filters, which is what I believe is throwing off the separation lines between materials (also note that course vs medium or fine is not the "only" way the achieve separation lines between materials, you will see if you look at the bottom left of the original attachment, both views are actually set to course, and there is a separation line between materials. The separation line was achieved by other means.

    The important part is that there is not a way within the phase filters to differentiate between different types of walls. Notably there is not a way to tell Revit to treat partition walls differently from structural (concrete) walls in terms of the overrides. Mainly, we want a different hatch for the wall types, and if the wall is new or existing. Within the phase filters settings at least. But I am certain that there is a way to set is up somehow with filters. It is just a matter of finding the correct way. If you could enlighten me if you know of a way to use object phase properties to set graphic overrides I think that would resolve the issue. I have looked, and there is not by default "phase" within the filters menu, or a way make one manually. That I have found, yet.

    I believe alot of people have had this, or similar issues like this, and an answer would help more than just me.

    I really do thank you for your response. I know that this is a very complex issue, and I knew that there would not be a simple answer. I have been struggling with this issue for quite some time. Any insight is greatly appreciated. I also knew that I could probably not adequately describe the issue within the original post, and that it would take some progression to find the proper solution.

    Thanks again to any responders, especially revittotd.

  4. #4
    Moderator DaveP's Avatar
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    Don't remember where, but I got this list from a blog post several years ago:

    (Most important on top)
    1. Line Work Tool
    2. Override graphics in view by elements
    3. Filters
    4. View Depth -Beyond system line type (plan views only)
    5. Phasing graphic overrides
    6. Advanced model graphics silhouette edges.
    7. Visibility / Graphic overrides Halftone
    8. Visibility / Graphic overrides Override host layers (Cut line styles)
    9. Visibility / Graphic overrides - (projection & cut lines)
    10. Project object styles

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    I don't think this will answer everything, but it might help: What i have seen on remodel/addition projects is using different wall types for existing walls vs new walls. For example, you might have both an "Mtl Std w/ Gyp Bd ea side - EX" and "Mtl Std w/Gyp Bd ea side" - the only difference being the "- EX" suffix (or prefix). This might help you use the filters to clarify the graphics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveP View Post
    Don't remember where, but I got this list from a blog post several years ago:

    (Most important on top)
    1. Line Work Tool
    2. Override graphics in view by elements
    3. Filters
    4. View Depth -Beyond system line type (plan views only)
    5. Phasing graphic overrides
    6. Advanced model graphics – silhouette edges.
    7. Visibility / Graphic overrides – Halftone
    8. Visibility / Graphic overrides – Override host layers (Cut line styles)
    9. Visibility / Graphic overrides - (projection & cut lines)
    10. Project object styles
    It was posted at the Revit Clinic blog

    Revit Visibility Hierarchy - The Revit Clinic

    It is (was) also posted at the wikihelp but I can't seem to find it right now.

  7. #7
    Senior Member rkitect's Avatar
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    I think I understand what the problems you are having are now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the question you posed was "This is how I need my phased elements to appear and differentiate between my various partition types. The problem is I can't seem to achieve this with the tools I have."

    I'm curious if you would be willing to approach it differently: "These are the tools which revit has and their intended use. How can I document my wall functions and phases using those tools?"

    While I agree that the tool used to answer the first question (combining the ability to use phase filters AND object overrides at the same time) would be cool to have, I really think the solution to the second question would be much simpler, more intelligent and BIM friendly than any solution you will come across which requires parametric visibility control, view filters, element overrides and other workarounds to try to fit the tools into the workflow instead of the workflow into the tools. Is there a reason you couldn't have a view which shows what is new versus existing and then show the materials in either a different plan view or in detail showing that condition to differentiate the materials? Here is an image showing a Phase View showing the differentiation between new and existing:


    and a separate view, in this case a detail displaying the separation of materials:


    Do these 2 views accomplish what you need to document to have the project built?

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    Just to throw in a variant... I have seen lots of posts from people wanting to change line weigth of different layers in wall build-up. Frequently these people are derided and told that everyone must change their drawing standards to suit Revit. I would stongly disagree and say that Revit should accomodate widely used drawing standards when it outputs parts of the model to 2D graphics - which is what we all still communicate to siite with.

    In particular, engineering disciplines would typically want the structural parts of walls heavier lineweight than non-structural. I, for example, am struggling to avoid having the finsishes etc., like plaster for example, show up in heavy line like my structural wall core. This is somewhat the opposite to the original post that wants heavy lines outside. It's a great pity that there aren't different categories or subcategories that can be tailored to give the line weights we need.

    A typical engineering discipline drawing might have heavy reinforced concrete cut lines but that would make all the cavity wall outer lines the same heavy line and that really doesn't conform to known standards where I'm from. I may have missed something though and I will keep looking. The nearest I have got so far is to re-define the composite walls so none of it is structure (make layers substrate for example), then I can override cut line styles and set substrate (for example) to a thin line weight. However, that seems to mess up wall joins.

    I keep seen people saying we should think BIM. This isn't necessarily BIM, we should remember - probably most people are using Revit as a geometric modelling tool and that isn't necessarily BIM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyPandy View Post
    In particular, engineering disciplines would typically want the structural parts of walls heavier lineweight than non-structural. I, for example, am struggling to avoid having the finsishes etc., like plaster for example, show up in heavy line like my structural wall core. This is somewhat the opposite to the original post that wants heavy lines outside. It's a great pity that there aren't different categories or subcategories that can be tailored to give the line weights we need.
    Actually it's not a dicipline specific drafting method. Even in architecture we tend to draw the structure in a thicker line than the finish. It's more a situation of the wall type.

    E.g. a partition would be drawn either as only the outside 2 lines, or (with more complex partitions) with thin lines depicting the "layers" of the partition (i.e. stud-work / insulation / etc.). Whereas a brick / concrete wall with plaster would be drawn in an opposite way - the plaster line would be a lot thinner than the brick / conc. line.

    Thus far the only way I can get this working properly in Revit is to play around with the various Functions for the various layers in each wall type. Then also play around with the Cut Line Styles in the VG dialog. Fortunately there are 2 Finish functions, but I'd have liked a 2nd Structure layer - at present I use the Thermal/Air Function for partition "structure" and the Structure Function for others.

  10. #10
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    I agree. I have taken a similar approach so far but it's messy, I feel. In my case, I'm setting the masonry to 'substrate' and putting a thin lineweight in the VG cut line overrides. If BIM is the 'next big thing' then BIM authoring tools like Revit need to address these as well as doubtless many others.

    There are standards (in my area, British Standards and others) that cover the production of drawings. Although these were born in the era of paper drawings, they are still relevant today because that is what we produce - paper drawings - and the people on site need to be able to read and understand them in a familar way. Regardless of the model complexity and wealth of data that it can contain, the representation of parts on a drawing cannot be clearly done in a strictly realistic way at the scales we reproduce them so we still have to incorproate a symbolic element in our 2D graphics - I have young technicians trying to draw relaisitc style representations in CAD until they realise or are taught the need for symbolic repsentation. Two lines 15mm apart at 1:50 are going to merge into one thick one on paper!

    It isn't a trivial thing either - there are docuemted failures that are attributable to unclear drawings. One example is (I am dredging my memory now so can't vouch for accuracy) a retaining wall in South Africa where the reinforcement was incorrect due to a dimension line passing exactly through the digit "1" in a reinforcement label. That was in the days of hand drawing but the example is still instructive today, even though scheduling is becoming automatic.

    Quote Originally Posted by irneb View Post
    Actually it's not a dicipline specific drafting method. Even in architecture we tend to draw the structure in a thicker line than the finish. It's more a situation of the wall type.

    E.g. a partition would be drawn either as only the outside 2 lines, or (with more complex partitions) with thin lines depicting the "layers" of the partition (i.e. stud-work / insulation / etc.). Whereas a brick / concrete wall with plaster would be drawn in an opposite way - the plaster line would be a lot thinner than the brick / conc. line.

    Thus far the only way I can get this working properly in Revit is to play around with the various Functions for the various layers in each wall type. Then also play around with the Cut Line Styles in the VG dialog. Fortunately there are 2 Finish functions, but I'd have liked a 2nd Structure layer - at present I use the Thermal/Air Function for partition "structure" and the Structure Function for others.

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