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Thread: Residential Windows

  1. #1
    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    Residential Windows

    I'm trying to rework and simplify my window library and for some reason it is kicking my ass. I'm entirely certain that I am over thinking the entire process but thought I should at least see what's out there.

    First (I'm a mooch) - does anyone have a window (double / single hung preferably) they would care to share? I don't need or want an entire library, just one to pick apart & reverse engineer. If you do post an entire library you are awesome (I'll rebuild mine either way though.) I know several of the manufacturers have families but I don't like them for any number of reasons.

    I don't think it is the best approach but in terms of process here is what I have been doing:

    The bulk of our work is design-build of some variety and a lot of details such as the exact frame size are never really addressed, I'm building with that in mind. This also assumes a double / single hung window since it is the most common type that is used here.
    1. Get CAD details from a manufacturer. For all intents and purposes I'm viewing them as the same and the manufacturer will be dealt with in a spec or note rather than build a library for each manufacturer.
    2. Take details and clean them up so they are usable dimensionally (mostly to keep me sane) - this does mean some minor size adjustments, i.e. going from 17/32" to 1/2" - I'm ok with them up to 1/8" tolerance.
    3. Create profiles from details as needed
    4. Create the Frame, Upper Sash, Lower Sash (GM, converted to window category)
    5. Nest all 3 into a window host (this is actually several steps and results in a lot of formulas in the family that carry through to the model)
    6. Add in a Sill & Head (two separate families)
    7. Lots of formulas and parameters to get everything to flex correctly.
    What I'm thinking of doing: (first 3 are the same)

    1. Get CAD details from a manufacturer. For all intents and purposes I'm viewing them as the same and the manufacturer will be dealt with in a spec or note rather than build a library for each manufacturer.
    2. Take details and clean them up so they are usable dimensionally (mostly to keep me sane) - this does mean some minor size adjustments, i.e. going from 17/32" to 1/2" - I'm ok with them up to 1/8" tolerance.
    3. Create profiles from details as needed
    4. Create the upper & lower sash as one family
    5. Create the frame
    6. Nest the sash into the frame - my thought on doing it this way is just to keep constraints simpler and keep the bulk of the formulas out of sight.
    7. Nest that entire assembly and my Head & Sill into a host family to go into the model. Use this family to control location in the wall, double / triple assemblies with vertical mullions, etc
    8. Create use based families similar to Aaron's doors - Window-Casement, Window-Double-Hung, Window-Fixed-Pair and then use parameters to drive the various bits and pieces.
    In theory that will make the family in the model a lot easier to use so I don't have to wade through a gazillion parameters just to change the width of the entire unit.

    Am I on the right track with that thought process?
    What level of detail should the profiles be taken to? The manufacturer profiles are overly intricate and (IMO) don't display well, especially when you get down to the small curves without some editing.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    Administrator Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    Theyre more complicated than the doors, but there is good reason. Dont have time to do a large type up right now, but will try to revisit later.
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    Last edited by Twiceroadsfool; December 14th, 2015 at 10:20 PM.

  3. #3
    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    There more complicated than the doors, but there is good reason. Dont have time to do a large type up right now, but will try to revisit later.
    The complexity has to do with the masonry trim per Mia's talk at RTC correct? That aside they are way simpler than what I've been doing...

    And thanks!

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    Administrator Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    Yes and no. They get more complex as you start to flex the dimensions... Because the nested families need to drive one anothers dimensions, which you obviously cant do. So there are times you need to edit a Type property of the shared nested window, and then edit a type or instance property of the Parent window itself. But to build the windows correctly to represent the Panning, its the only decent way to achieve it.

    And yes, Mia went over this in *our* lecture. (She taught it in Chicago, i taught it in Australia, lol)...

  5. #5
    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    Yes and no. They get more complex as you start to flex the dimensions... Because the nested families need to drive one anothers dimensions, which you obviously can't do. So there are times you need to edit a Type property of the shared nested window, and then edit a type or instance property of the Parent window itself. But to build the windows correctly to represent the Panning, its the only decent way to achieve it.

    And yes, Mia went over this in *our* lecture. (She taught it in Chicago, i taught it in Australia, lol)...
    Hm. I'll look more into the flexing side of things in a bit. The geometry itself is a lot simpler than what I've been doing though which is good. Cleaning up and recreating the manufacturer profiles takes for ever...

    Shows what I know It was a good class at least

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    Administrator Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    The geometry isnt the hard part. I dont remember if the F00-Panning frame is already loaded in that Family that i sent. If not, its the nested frame where you will start to see the issues. The nested Frame profiles cant realistically be parametrically tied to the parent family, since the Panning profiles of the windows is far more complex than Door Frames. But that Parent windows sizing MINUS the Frame panning needs to drive the Actual Window Panel itself (the not-really-architecturally-present-but-nested-family i use for swapping window actions). So you just end up with redundant parameters. No way around it.

  7. #7
    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    For reference - here is a window I'm using at the moment.
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  8. #8
    Moderator cellophane's Avatar
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    Question - when you have a window unit with a transom, which is technically 2 windows - do you create a new type so you can nest your trim or is the trim then applied separately in the project?

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    Administrator Twiceroadsfool's Avatar
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    If its a real transom (one larger hole in the wall), id do it as a new Parent Family, with nested trim, another nested intermediate trim, and the "panel" families.

    But ive seen some residential projects where the "transom" is a whole other window, and there is even exterior finish between them, like a soldier course of brick. In that case... different families all together.

  10. #10
    Member anthonyB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twiceroadsfool View Post
    ... Because the nested families need to drive one anothers dimensions, which you obviously cant do. So there are times you need to edit a Type property of the shared nested window, and then edit a type or instance property of the Parent window itself. But to build the windows correctly to represent the Panning, its the only decent way to achieve it.
    I think that would be challenging in an office environment of mixed skill levels.

    Is this work methodology still the case with v2017/v2018? I don't believe we can drive the nested shared parameters.

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